SATIRICAL SECTIONIn his most aggressive public relations move since leaving office, former Vice President Dick Cheney today established a Facebook page for fans of torture.
In recent weeks, Mr. Cheney has been speaking out in praise of such controversial interrogation tactics as waterboarding, but in establishing his Facebook page the former vice president seems to be attempting something far more ambitious: creating a social network for torture fans everywhere.
"This is a place where fans of waterboarding can meet, chat, and yes, hook up," Mr. Cheney told Fox News host Sean Hannity last night.
The former vice president extolled his torture fan page as a dating site, telling Mr. Hannity, "This way when you go out on a date with somebody you know going in how he or she feels about waterboarding. I think that's important in building a long-term and hopefully loving relationship. It's certainly something Lynne and I share."
But based on the tepid early response to Mr. Cheney's torture fan page -- only he and his wife Lynne have signed up to date -- the vice-president may face obstacles in creating a social network of waterboarding fans.
"I can't think of a creepier place to hook up with someone than a site that Dick Cheney is involved in," said Tracy Klugian, 27, of Madison, Wisconsin. "I'd feel like someone was always watching me."
At the White House, Vice President Joe Biden was harshly critical of his predecessor's remarks on torture, telling reporters, "Dick Cheney had eight years to run his mouth without thinking. That's my job now."
SERIOUS SECTION:
It is deeply disturbing to hear people debating the use of torture, not on the basis of right or wrong but on whether or not it produces helpful intelligence. Such a debate gives rise to some very basic questions about who we are as a nation.
* If, as we claim, America does not torture, why are we discussing the pros and cons of what torture produces?
* Does accepting "productive" torture mean American lives take precedence over the lives of everyone else?
* How does our respect for human rights fit with some torture, in some circumstances as acceptable?
* How do we rate our value system if we have the courage of our convictions only when nothing is at stake?
* Can we even claim to have values if they do not govern our actions in difficult times?
* Can America expect to be considered a member of the family of civilized nations if we indulge in barbaric behavior when it suits us?
Democracy depends on the rule of law to maintain freedom and liberty for all. We cannot expect to keep those rights for ourselves if we allow our leaders to bully and terrorize others. There are many actions that can be forced to fit under the term "legal" but are obviously not within ethical boundaries. And in the end, what is law without morality?
When asked for legal advice, lawyers have the ethical and professional responsibility to give that advice based on good law. When instead, lawyers begin to twist the law to meet the requirements of the advice seekers they are no longer fulfilling those responsibilities.
This is not a political issue. It has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It has nothing to do with the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of certain behaviors. It is a question of right and wrong. It is a choice we must make about whether or not we are what we have always claimed to be as a nation and as citizens.
The loss of moral character rarely if ever is an abrupt transformation. It is rather a gradual change supported by justifications, and insidious rationalizations giving noble motives for actions that have no semblance of nobility. Of all the slippery slopes we could go down, this one could be the most detrimental to us as a nation and as individuals. Do we really want to go there?
.
103 comments:
Leeeet the sunshine
Let the sunshine in
The suuuunshine in
Nice:)
They will get away with it. The powerful always do.
I agree that they always get away with it, but only partially. Nixon got pardoned, but lost his job and is still associated with disgrace. Clinton kept his job, but will always be remembered as a Horn Dog. I doubt if bush/cheney will do any time, but at least they will be publicly and historically labeled as the lying corporate shills they are....and wouldn't it be a nice fringe benefit if during the investigation the public finds out that they were warned about 9/11 and negligently ignored it?
They only get away with it if we let them!!! WE are the true power in this country!! If we want them brought to justice, we must let our elected representatives know this.
Leaders lead only with the permission of the lead! If they aren't held accountable, we have only ourselves to blame. Write, call, email your congressman, senator, and even the White House!
NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW!!!!!!!
wonderful.
I totally agree, and from all the military men in my family, no enlisted person in uniform does anything on their own, they are all given orders, period!
Right, I was E4 in Vietnam and did as I was ordered to. You are so right the orders came from the very top or nobody would have done anything like that.
Good for Moveon.org. I support them with a small monthly contribution; was beginning to wonder what they were doing!
Anti coal industry commercials for starters.
Love MoveOne.org - will do it!!
Awesome. A special prosecutor is exactly what we need. It's time Cheney's held accountable.
They should be prosecuted.....it's the same as arresting the people on the streets selling drugs but never arresting their supplier. Get the big fish.
Great blog doc. That is a good one! Way to go MoveOn!!! Way to go.
In 1959 we executed Julius & Ethel Rosenberg for doing what Cheney authorized Scooter Libby to do...reveal the names of active undercover CIA agents to our enemies.
I'm just sayin'...
They have always thought themselves above the law. They've snubbed their noses at us, congress, then constitution and the world. They are sociopaths.
I've been imagining Richard Cheney in orange for several years and for several reasons. Torture tops the list but there are so many more high crimes and misdemeanors.
photo
Finally someone is taking aim at that despicable rat! How anyone could vote for a ticket on which he was vice president will always remain a mystery to me. But I was also always shocked that the people of the United States would follow the Russians in a way by electing a former head of the CIA as a President as well. Sometimes I just sit back and marvel as the mass stupidity in this great land.
I don't blame the stupidity of Americans as much as I blame the corporate media for not pointing out these things and keeping Americans stupefied.
Obama should pardon ALL the enlisted members of the military that are doing time, especially Lindy Englund. That poor girl has an IQ in the single digits. Then go after the higher ups.
I suspect this is why the former vp is lashing out so much lately. He fears investigations and a trial. He knows he's right smack dab in the middle of this treachery. Justice must be served!
Torture is against the law. In Republican World™ if you are Republican, and you rob a bank, there should be a philosophical discussion... But nothing is a crime in Republican World™ if a Republican engages in it.
There's no turning back now, tomorrow's help wanted ad.
Wanted: Independent Special Prosecutor to investigate abuses and torture, apply to E. Holder
Please sign both of these petitions...
ACLU petition to demand that the Justice Department Appoint a Special Prosecutor
https://secure.aclu.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=Nat_Petition_SpecialProsecutor_SEM&s_s=0416_GO
MoveOn.org petition to demand that the Justice Department Appoint a Special Prosecutor
http://pol.moveon.org/torture/
Please do this right now.
Done both.................thanks for passing it along!
the links don't work...
you have to copy and paste them into your browser
Done. Thanks.
Finally - the curtain surrounding the Washington Oz has been pushed open.
Now if we can just get the good people of this country to take a look behind the curtain. Sometimes it is too painful. Sometimes we just refuse to see!!!
If Cheney somehow ends up in jail, I will throw a party for the entire country!!!!!
You know what, I will chip in on the bill.
I'll bring the chips and dip!
That's one party I want to attend. But I doubt he will ever end up in jail. I just want to see his role in this era prominently displayed in history books for the next 100 years or so!!!!
Who knew that Reagan's shining city on a hill would have torture chambers added by his followers!
Pursue Bush Administration Officials for war crimes, not just CIA lawyers.
Make no mistake about it, Cheney is the guy behind wars and this financial crisis also.
To transfer the wealth and power of this nation and other nations to his circle of wealthy friends.
Republicans Strategist Phil Musser: "Having seen the face of terror, you know I walked through camp X-ray down in Guantanamo Bay when I was serving in the government and you really, it changes your nature of the threat to look at the people on the other sides of the fences."
Nora O'Donnell: "So just by looking at them, Phil, you could tell they were guilty?"
Musser: "I could, ya know, I could tell, I could tell basically that they were gonna...."
Nora O'Donnell: "And they deserved waterboarding?"
Musser: "[stammering] Uh, Nora, you know what, Nora, I'm not making any particular allegations against individual people, but what I'm saying is, the nature of the threat is very, very different..."
Lawrence O'Donnell: "I think we just got a real window into the Bush administration's view of how to approach these problems: 'Just by walking through Guantanamo, and looking at prisoners, I COULD TELL' and, we didn't get a full answer to what you could tell; but that is very similar to President Bush saying, 'I looked into Putin's eyes and saw an honest man I could deal with.' ... What you just confessed to is the most simple-minded possible approach to governing affairs and evaluations of where the truth lies. ... And for you to say that, just by looking at people in Guantanamo, I knew something about them is a very, very wrong-headed, and very, very dangerous approach to both juriceprudence and national security,"
Link to the video:
http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=2409648
I saw this live on Wed. and was stunned that this Musser asshole said that a walk through Guantanamo was enough to justify torture. When I look at Cheney's face my immediate reaction is an uncontrollable urge to hook a car battery to his testicles.. so does that mean I should?
Boy, O'Donnell laid him out. I was wonderful to see and hear. MSNBC should give O'Donnell a show also. Instead of all night reruns, stick O'Donnell in their somewhere. That's a man who knows how to get to the nitty gritty of the subject. Good going O'Donnell!
I'm ready for some change.
How about we hold those that are corrupt and guilty of torture accountable for a change.
At the Tokyo War Crimes trials at the end of WWII, several Japanese soldiers were prosecuted for carrying out water torture, (now framed as waterboarding) on US soldiers.
Their defense was similar to that offered by Cheney & Co., namely that there was a clear and present danger to Japanese soldiers; basically they wanted to find out the location of US soldiers so they could avoid being killed.
The court was having none of it. Their act was declared a war crime and they were executed.
Now that the boot is on the other foot, waterboarding has been moved from out-and-out torture to that fuzzy, gray area. Talk about double standards.
It is also a sign of the times that there has been nothing in the media mentioning past precedents with respect to water torture.
Whenever the subject is discussed in the Western press, no-one brings up previous case law. I wonder why?
Torture is wrong and when committed during war it is a war crime. We prosecuted waterboarders from the Viet-Nam era, because they did it to our GIs.
Bush-Co committed war crimes and they should be prosecuted for war crimes to the FULLEST extent. From Bush on down the line. Period!
Cheney is asking for an indictment - he openly admits that he approved and encouraged torture - he says the circumstances justified his action. If a woman kills her battering husband - should she be tried in a legitimate court and a jury be allowed to determine if her action was justified? I think so - and that is the case with Bush and Cheney.
It is past time to find out exactly who did what, when and where. I don't care what label they wear. America does not torture. Period. And anyone who did it my name needs to be outed and punished in my name.
My father was a POW in Germany. I know what happens to those who have been tortured first hand. It isn't pretty and it doesn't go away. He was wounded in Korea. And he fought against all the evil in the world right up until the day he died of cancer the VA knew he had but chose not to treat. My son is a disabled Navy vet with PTSD earned fighting in this war, a suicide-attempt survivor. I have given a lot to this country. I will NOT give up my values because a few have chosen to break the public's trust.
It is past time to seek out those who violated the law and our morals and standards and punish them - no matter who they are.
I am sorry that you had to come by your knowledge the way you did, thank your family for their service and thank you, keep on speaking for what's right, and please feel free to comment on doc's blog in the future. We are all pro Obama here.
Thanks. I will. I've long been a reader, now I'm a commenter because this topic is close to home for me.
More proof Republicans are SickFucks:
Headline: John Yoo (Author of The Bush Torture Memos) Says President Bush Can Legally Crush the Testicles of the Children of Information Targets:
Cassel: "If the president deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?"
Yoo: "No treaty"
Cassel: "Also no law by Congress -- that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo..."
Yoo: "I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that."
http://rwor.org/a/026/torture-victims-confront-advocate.htm
Those are Republican family values, right there.
Thanks for bringing this one back. I always thought this revelation would be the one that would open sheeples minds to Yoo's failed logic, but it was just another tidbit to debate. Amazing.
So torturing kids wasn't even ruled out. What a sin and a shame. I wonder what they would say if somebody tried to do that to one of their kids. With their cold hearts, it might not even matter.
moveon.org/investigate
sign the petition there
only needs your name (anyname) email and zipcode
Everyone here needs to do that.
I hope folks know doc was satirizing about Cheney and Facebook... Cheney's not really on it... doc's just making his point (ROTFLMAO!!) about Cheney authorizing torture.
Yes. Excellent blog, doc.. funny.. then the video got us all serious. Clever the way you balance it out...
cut and paste the text below into an email message:
Subject: Help hold the architects of torture accountable
Hi,
I just signed a petition to Attorney General Eric Holder asking for an investigation into the architects of the Bush administration's torture program.
Check out this powerful video about the campaign, and sign the petition, at this link: http://pol.moveon.org/investigate
MoveOn.org is going to deliver the petition to Holder on Thursday, so make sure to sign today -- and pass along to your friends, too.
http://pol.moveon.org/investigate
Thanks!
Great ad Move On, get it showing on better TV Stations everywhere.
Belief in torture is not a situational ethic. Either you do or you don't. America does not believe in torture, therefore, the guilty must be brought to justice. Situational ethics is just a crybabies attempt to rationalize something they know they should not have done.
I would go one step further and say you believe in the LAW or you don't. Torture is illegal and has always been illegal. Were there acts of torture committed, Yes. Is that against the law, Yes. Why you broke the law or what happened as a result of you breaking the law are not the real argument here. The law applies to everyone or it does not.
'Renditioned' means they sent people to countries where they do really sick things. Similar to things Al Qaida does. They knew this would happen - they pretended not to be involved. Those atrocities are on the Bu$h Admns hands too.
Dick Cheney is the equivalent of Torquemada, the Inquisitor General of the Spanish Inquisition in the Fifteenth Century, I am certain he would have found justification for torturing people in past centuries as he is now doing in the Twenty First Century.
MoveOn is right, lets not allow Cheney to get away with disgracing all Americans by being associated with his sadistic mentality, lets show the world that he violated our laws and the vast majority of America never condoned these barbaric practices.
I remember a time when Americans decried nations for for barbaric practices, now, we have joined the ranks of barbaric nations, and all it took was a couple of decades of a corporate media campaigning for it.
Cheney needs to be arrested, tried and found guilty.
Don't forget Bush and the rest of those who formulated and carried out these war crimes, like Rove and Rumsfeld.
If this leads to the indictment of Cheney and it exposes everything about how they orchestrated Iraq on behalf of a foreign government, then all the pain and frustration of the past 8 years will be vindicated.
They tried to link Al-Qaida with Iraq through t0rture, they outed Valerie Plame to cover the lies, they produced all kinds of fake charts for the U.N.. I think at the same time the authors of t0rture are investigated, the whole "Special Ops Office" operation headed by Feith at the Pentagon at the time should come under investigation by the Special Prosecutor. There is much more to that "operation" than we know.
Hillary just sounded the alarm to a growing danger in Pakistan. It is precisely because of IRAQ that this danger evolved over the years wasted in Iraq, the resources wasted in Iraq, the lives sacrificed in Iraq!
WE NEED TO GET THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH!
The now-public torture memos sort of put the old "it was just a few bad apples" theory to rest - forever.
If they're not going to prosecute those who initiated and approved the program, then they need to commute the sentences of Lyndie England, Graner, etc. and let them out of prison.
They need to go after the contractors like CACI on this one, too.
Agreed. If you don't punish the Big Fish, then let the Minnows go.
I think Lyndie England is already out. Her Wiki page says she got three years (in 2005).
Colonel Thomas Pappas was relieved of his command on May 13, 2005 after receiving nonjudicial punishment on May 9, 2005 for two instances of dereliction, including that of allowing dogs to be present during interrogations.
Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan became the highest ranking Army officer to have charges brought against him in connection with the Abu Ghraib abuse on April 29, 2006; acquitted of all charges.
Specialist Charles Graner was found guilty on January 14, 2005 of conspiracy to maltreat detainees
Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick plead guilty on October 20, 2004 to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees
Private First Class Lyndie England was convicted on September 26, 2005, of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act.
Sergeant Santos Cardona was convicted of dereliction of duty and aggravated assault
Specialist Roman Krol plead guilty on February 1, 2005 to conspiracy and maltreatment of detainees
Brig. General Janis Karpinski, commanding officer at the prison was demoted to colonel on May 5, 2005, which also effectively ends her chances for future career advancement. In a BBC interview, Janis Karpinski said she is being made a scapegoat, and that the top U.S. commander for Iraq, Gen Ricardo Sanchez, should be asked what he knew about the abuse, as according to her, he said that prisoners are "like dogs".
Of course torture works. How else could we have gotten all those confessions from all those witches during the Middle Ages?
Great. I needed a laugh. Can always count on adlib.
that's a gem worth repeating, I also like the comparison of the Vatican protecting child abusers for "the good of the Church". It's the same mentality, cover-up.
Absolutely!
You know there's every possibility that those who were tortured could sue Cheney for every penny he's worth for his and all the others directly responsible for violating Federal Law and Torturing them...
Imagine that one.....a huge civil suit against Dick Cheney and John Yoo, Federal Judge Bybee, David Addington and the others that bankrupts all of them might be a nice addition to any criminal charges...or even if there are none...
Try Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Bybee and anyone else found complicit in these illegal and immoral actions.
If any of those guys plead the fifth, does that mean we get to waterboard a confession from them?
This is what happens when you have a right-wing gang illegitimately seize the White House -- having been appointed in a 5 to 4 decision by the Supreme Court. The gang figures that, with its success, it can get away with anything.
In a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court stopped the vote counting -- that was a subversion. I'm still crying over the subversion of our democracy by a politicized Supreme Court.
I wonder if the Professor of Constitutional Law, John Yoo, would like his interpretation of torture applied to him, Cheney, Bybee and countless others of the past Bush-Cheney crowd.
John Demjanjuk (WWII Nazi prison guard) was once deported to Israel for trial and ultimately pardoned and allowed back in the US. He was recently threatened for deportation again. Adolf Eichman did not do quite so well. The Mossad grabbed his criminal rear end, in South America, tried him and hung him.
WWII criminals are just that. If there are such 'animals', past or present in the US Government, maybe they should be dealt with. Thankfully the Mossad has no authority here, but if it takes MoveOn to wake the Justice Department up, then do it MoveOn. I signed the petition and emailed it to everyone in my address book.
I signed the move-On Petition and sent letters to my congressman and senators as well. The world is watching and we are all going to be held accountable if we ignore this issue.
"The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.
After World War II, we convicted and executed several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
Anybody in our government who has been part of torturing: conceiving it, ordering it, planning it, overseeing it, doing it,... should be investigated and prosecuted if the evidence is there. The biggest lesson of Nuremberg was that following orders is no excuse to torture. We ARE a nation of laws. No one in this country is above the law. Prosecuting criminal behavior is not looking backwards; it is moving forwards and re-establishing strong foundations for our Constitution where the foundations have been worn away by criminals.
Absolutely right on!
I always objected to torture on moral grounds.
Something else I just read: the Bush administration borrowed methods of torture from the past, such as those used in WWII and old communist countries, without realizing these methods were used to evoke FALSE information, which a government would then use as propaganda.
Such as what happened with McCain in Vietnam when they got him to say anti-American statements they used as propaganda.
Waterboarding itself was apparently devised by the Spanish Inquisition. Sounds like a joke, doesn't it? If only it were funny.
I shudder to think of how many more wells would have gone dry and how many more cows would have come down with the pox were it not for the valuable information gathered from torturing witches.
Have you heard that those Salem girls may have been tripping from eating ergot-infested bread made from moldy flour? Seriously.
To paraphrase Jon Stewart, Conservatives don't know Dick!
That's why they meet anonymously in airport bathrooms.
LOL. Sure got that one right!
I posted a satirical section and a serious section on today's blog... now I'm messing around in the comment section (because satire is more fun):
Case No. 4689 - Former VP Dick Cheney v. Room Full of People Who Kind of Look Like They Have, At the Very Least, Thought About Al Qaeda.
Notes:
VP Dick Cheney was walking back from Chik-Fil-A after a hearty lunch, (Note: VP Cheney was very amused by the "Eat Mor Chikin" Cow posters, and had a Secret Service guard steal the kiosk for Cheney's bedroom) when he saw several young men with beards and Che Guavara shirts on, sitting on benches. Some were listening to iPods (probably a loop of a person screaming) and the others were reading (Probably books that said a lot of things about "American Infidels.")
VP Cheney spoke into his wrist and said "Hey, C.I.A., I need you to do a sweep of the mall lawn. I've got some interrogatin' to do." He then laughed for about seven minutes and was then told by his security detail that he did not have a microphone or any kind of wireless device in his shirtsleeve, so he was talking to no one.
Cheney then took the matter into his own hands and caught all the "suspects" in a large net he was carrying in his briefcase (Note: it was the ONLY thing in his briefcase).
Cheney then took the suspects to a Super 8 motel and tried the following methods of Interrogation, Cheney-style. (Note: not authorized by the C.I.A. or, anyone really).
-Sung the entire Patsy Cline greatest hits album. (also dressed up like Patsy Cline)
-Milkboarded (same as waterboarding, just with milk)
-Grimaced at suspects for an hour
-Danced shirtless and yelled
-Took out several bonesaws and repeatedly said "I know how to use these, and I am not afraid." (Note: never used any bonesaws, was probably afraid).
-Read them his manuscript "Oversteppin' My Boundaries (And Feelin' Fine)"
Apparently, the memoir reading worked and when VP Cheney got to chapter 19 "I Knew There Was a Confederate Flag Hanging in That Lodge and I didn't--and Still Don't--Give A Shit," one of the suspects leapt up and yelled "Please, please stop. We're just a lo-fi rock band from Brooklyn. We're playing the Lizard Lounge tonight. Please, let us go."
VP Cheney then, took a hair sample from each band-member/suspect and released them from the interrogation room.
He was later spotted at the Lizard Lounge, watching the show, cradling and kissing a Bonesaw. One onlooker saw Cheney feeding the saw a shot of whiskey.
The band never played another show again.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
Stick with satire, doc. You're great at it, and we're not used to serious from you (but the serious section was excellently written, just too..... serious! LOL). It's the satire that really sets your blog apart from the wannabes)
I love it when doc comments here. Buffy too. The double whammy.
I'm always refreshing the comment section to keep up with the newest comments, whether they're serious or snarky. Love em all.
We might as well laugh, or we'd cry over the torture crap Cheney & co. are almost certain to get away with...
Expert (Military Interrogator) to Rachel: "The Torture Program Was Designed To Extract FALSE Information":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_mD9GPk9FM
The Torture Program That The White House Designed Even Did It Wrong According To Torture Experts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DgCOudMMr0
The Purpose of the Torture Was To Find A Justification For The War in Iraq (& How The FBI's Effective & Legal Techniques for Getting Actionable Intelligence Was Shut Out):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSw-B5Iq8tE
How We Know That The Torture Came On Orders From The Very Top, And Not "A Few Bad Apples":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO_2jd78UUw
Article III Part 17 of the Geneva Convention states in part:
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.
Even "coercive techniques" violates this part.
Doc's satirizing Cheney - he's not satirizing torture, THAT he's serious about. We cannot let Dick Cheney set the terms of America's debate about torture.
This does not need to be a partisan issue. In fact, any Republican who's out there backing Cheney on this should pause long enough to read Wednesday's Andrew Sullivan post called "What Cheney Did To Conservatism."
None of us -- not conservatives, not anybody - should let Cheney distract us right now. There's no way for both Cheney and America to win here. So Cheney needs to lose.
usa-for-obama's right: Do not let Cheney frame the debate. Do not let him pick the battlefield.
You said it! Isn't it amazing that in the past two weeks we've heard more from him than we did in the eight years he was officially appointed Prince of Darkness? Cheney saying that torture saved thousands of lives is like him saying that not rebuilding New Orleans prevented another Katrina. There's this little cause-and-effect thing where he's always had a lot of problems.
We can set the terms for Cheney...
20 to life sounds about right.
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